I often see people say Farcaster isn't "sufficiently decentralized".
You're free to define what "sufficiently decentralized" means to you, of course, but how we think about it is laid out in Varun's blog post:
A social network achieves sufficient decentralization if two users can find each other and communicate, even if the rest of the network wants to prevent it. This implies that users can always reach their audience, which can only be true if developers can build many clients on the network. If only one client existed, it could stop users from communicating. Achieving this only requires three decentralized features: the ability to claim a unique username, post messages under that name, and read messages from any valid name.
You might ask: "But if most people use Warpcast, doesn't that mean it's de facto centralized?"
Depends on the perspective.
For a developer, if you are building on the protocol, then you're free to sign up your own users or convince users to move over to your app (it's easy for users to use multiple clients at the same time).
For an account with an audience, let's say you were unfairly nerfed by Warpcast, i.e. you don't appear on the app. There's definitely a lot of friction to get people to start using another client if they already don't, but the protocol itself is not restricting your ability to communicate. That's an important distinction because on web2 / centralized social networks, the app and the "protocol" (i.e. the database) is the same thing.
So if you're argument is Farcaster is not sufficiently "decentralized" (or "decentralized" if you don't like the sufficient framing) then you're defining decentralization as a protocol or network that has at least 2 independent, roughly equivalent functionality and UX clients (because majority of consumers revealed preference is UX over principles).
That's a reasonable definition.
But in practice, in the near-term, there's unlikely to be multiple, well-resourced enough clients that are full-time building on the protocol for amazing UX. That's not a knock on people building, just the reality that in 2024 consumers expect a lot of our their daily driver apps.
In the medium to long-term, dedicated individuals, small teams or open source projects can likely hit the UX bar. But that will probably take years of sustained effort.
So protocols in the early days are unlikely to hit the bar of 2 independent, roughly equivalent and functionality UX clients.
This is something I've changed my mind on over the years.
"But if Warpcast didn't have exclusivity on DCs and channels, then other clients could better compete"
Yes, but having both be interoperable / in the protocol doesn't magically mean all of that surface area gets built out in other clients.
I would assume other clients can move quicker by copying whatever patterns Warpcast has iterated to (avoiding all of our mistakes) and then in some cases, improve the UX.
But building out a robust chat UX in 2024 that's passable (not even Telegram level snappy) is a lot of work. That's effort not being spent on differentiating features or other core parts of the app. Same goes for channels.
And arguably, the most important part of a feed-based social app is the feed, which is mostly backend (machine learning, performance).
One advantage for other clients are dedicated infrastructure companies like @neynar, @openrank etc.
But it's still a lot of work.
To close: it's easy to have a bunch of opinions on how the ecosystem should be built. But if you talk to the people building the apps, they often have a different perspective having been in the salt mines.
That's not to say we are doing everything perfectly (we're not!) and we don't make mistakes. One of the reasons we are holding Developer Day next week is to get candid feedback from a group of developers working in the ecosystem daily. Goal is to get everyone better aligned and rowing in the same direction to make Farcaster successful.
Over 700 subscribers
I think it's also an issue of trust. If Warpcast will build so many features outside of protocol, to test them why not open-sourcing it so have transparency, history, and accountability? Most other protocols(Bluesky, Lens, Mastodon, etc) that are working on decentralized social have their main clients open-source. If the team didn't have so much power and wasn't involved in everything that touches the Farcaster ecosystem, the power of abuse wouldn't be so high but as it stands the power of abuse is almost unlimited. I mean instead of saying "build your own client" 100 times, isn't more helpful to say "fork our own client?". There's a clear reticence of open sourcing which only makes people suspicious, everybody knows the cost of open sourcing is not so high that the team can't afford it so the logical conclusion is that the plans for further decentralization, community building, fairness, and transparency are murky. Is there a VC directive to not open-sourcing it? At least if it is we know, and then we're not confused about what is happening. I think is much easier to evade criticism by doing what proves good faith rather than finding an excuse for why you're not doing it.
✨ New on Warpcast: Mini-app experiment We're exploring launching mini-apps from frames and deep links. Thanks to @paragraph and @matthewfox for working with us on the first prototypes. More coming soon. Try out Paragraph and Flappycaster in the frames below 👇
Tap "Read" to read this @paragraph post inline: https://dwr.email/what-does-sufficient-decentralization-mean
Tap "Play Now" to launch Flappycaster: https://www.flappycaster.com/
Under the hood, these are deep links to composer actions. If you're interested in building your own, see the developer docs here: https://warpcast.notion.site/Composer-Action-Deep-Links-55c401c4679244a1a6e8ffb8c0942872
cc @hennadios
it would be so cool that you did open bounties for people to create tutorials for this. i have been trying to do it for 20 minutes and it has been hard to figure it out. my experience tells me tutorials are fun, engaging, and exciting. the space for teaching people how to code through farcaster is extremely powerful, and a possibility that i think it would be great to see more energy in
🤣🤣🤣
Yo @leovido.eth you should check this out!
imagine it in landscape mode
the hit box on this godforsaken game gets me riled up however >:0
This is so cool
Bro wtf is this music tho 😂😂😭
Oh hell yeah
wow, this is great
oh i LOVE this!!!! i was already reading inline 95% of the time, though it wasn’t the best UX. this is a game changer
i like
the arrow got removed bc we stay in the app, lfg 😏
super cool 🤯
we might need PiP mode now hehe like i had this paragraph one open, then got a notification from someone replying to one of my casts, and clicking that navigated the warp cast screen behind the open miniapp
or "tabs" like TG has for having multiple webviews be cool to flag "media playback" too, so you could collapse it but listen to a podcast or something while you use the app
The experience on mobile is really good!
yesssss
is there developer documentation for miniapps yet?
Mini-apps are composer actions + deep links, so see the docs here for now. I know this is confusing, will write up a "mini app" specific version of these docs. https://warpcast.notion.site/Composer-Actions-7f2b8739ee8447cc8a6b518c234b1eeb
ahhh ok ty!!
@horsefacts.eth just dmed you!
Super fun!!! Damn i like it!
Great work! https://media.tenor.com/ESTkzQQMcTEAAAAC/star-wars.gif
!!!! 😍 Fantastic. I'm excited to experiment with this via my @paragraph publications! https://warpcast.com/danicaswanson/0x8d0b7537
This isn’t fixing /yoink but it’s a good second best thing to have worked on I guess
yyyayyyy
yea this flappycaster ux is much nicer
What needs to happen for the purple button to show?
A single deep link button will show purple: https://warpcast.notion.site/Composer-Action-Deep-Links-55c401c4679244a1a6e8ffb8c0942872#7b2f59be6952482f8f1f2a25b0d04025
🥷
this is a great experience!
Big UX improvement!!! Awesome! 🔥
Are there any restrictions on in-mini-app browser functionality? Mostly interested in WebSocket support.
WebSockets should work fine, subject to same origin in iframes on web.
Do you inject an auth token or something similar into the iframe? i.e can I auto-log in someone?
Yes, same model as composer actions, it all starts with a signed Frame message. https://warpcast.notion.site/Draft-Composer-Actions-7f2b8739ee8447cc8a6b518c234b1eeb
🙏
So cool. Farcaster as the new browser.
Thanks! will be useful⚡️👍🏼
Huuuuuuuuge
This is pretty sick.
I love this. Feels smooth as silk
(i don't know why i'm saying this), but i like how telegram handles all the links these days, especially that if you collapse it, it stays on the bottom so you can quickly get back
Hell yeah
little q on that purple btn 😁 https://warpcast.com/0xconca.eth/0xa0b2d020
Sorry unable to use the frame, is it possible to send the link please?
Wowow, paragraph mini app looks neat and it works amazing 💜
Is this something I could use when casting content from my website like this, and if yes, how? https://eirrann.art/updates/f/its-been-a-while-presenting-vitreum-femininum
this is big, another 💡 moment
Do mini apps have any access to the users FC data/ability to do any on-protocol actions based on actions/results of what happens in the mini-app?
Yes, when they launch they get a signed message with the user's identity, same as a frame. So it can log you in or be aware of your Farcaster ID. They can also pass messages back to the client app. Right now the only command is "create cast," but I can imagine adding others like "request transaction," "send DM," etc.
From a technical standpoint, will it be possible to easily convert any frame into a mini app? Or is there much more that goes into it?
A mini app view is a full HTML/CSS/JS webpage, so it's both easier and harder in some ways. Easier because you can use a full interactive canvas and any web framework you want, harder because there's more to set up than a simple image.
Cool! Thank you So if I already have a website set up, eg a blog website like paragraph, but on my own domain/hosting, it’s in a way easier than frames because I don’t need to run a separate app? (Not a dev so trying to understand how it works in practical terms)
oh my....@gotoalberto here we go @horsefacts.eth how will this impact a /frames-devs ? It always felt like /frames where baby apps. This unlock the stuff like webapp to ajax..literally 🤣
We'll see what people want to build! My hunch is that many frames will become simpler and launch into mini apps for more complex interactions. People have built really impressive apps even with all the constraints of frames, but anything that needs complex input or has more than a few steps is pretty painful.
What are the payment rails for mini-app? Your explanation above is very helpful.
I believe in the future you’ll be able to pull through the Warpcast connections, so it could be any payment rail that operates already
incredible. smooth af
how can we @swaye be one the initial prototypes too? would love to partake!
1) create your app: https://www.notion.so/warpcast/Draft-Composer-Actions-7f2b8739ee8447cc8a6b518c234b1eeb 2) submit it: https://warpcast.notion.site/Explore-Farcaster-dec77bfdda9d49b8aeb5746bf5f40e48 3) link to it: https://warpcast.notion.site/Composer-Action-Deep-Links-55c401c4679244a1a6e8ffb8c0942872
ty ser
Super convinient! No more switching tabs, and scrolling makes it so much easier to read. It’s awesome! Have been using notion, but will try it! Thank you so much legend!😁🙌 🙌 🙌
This also means that it is possible to embed web applications, right? This is very exciting news to me, and I'll be thinking about what to develop now!
purple button goes hard
finally a proper button
🤯🤯🤯 so so smooth!!!
love the paragraph
Finally opening mini-apps from the Frame is much more convenient and smooth. the stage is set, and now it’s up to the builders to showcase their talents.
Very cool. @horsefacts.eth curious about handling wallet connections and transactions inside these "mini-apps". One limitation of using frames is that we don't know the connected wallet address until the user hits the frame transaction endpoint. This means that it's hard to show wallet specific info in a frame before a user signs a message. Thinking if we added a Connect Wallet button inside the "mini-app", we can basically have a simplified but full dApp in an iFrame inside the Warpcast feed, which could potentially provide a better UX. What are your thoughts here?
nicely done 🤌
Yoink
Flappycaster was great Is yoink a form of mini app too
In case you missed it: what does sufficient decentralization mean? https://dwr.email/what-does-sufficient-decentralization-mean
it would be so great if clicking *Read* opened an article that i could scroll, or even an external link, but unfortunately, that's not the case
The mobile experience is great. On desktop it sucks. Click on the image.
Desktop -- you can click on the link, too.
i'm sure you know this, but here's a video of the scroll bug now that i know a thing or two about css, i bet this is a 2 minute fix...
Desktop -- I think on desktop the readme button should open a browser window.
on mobile it doesn't scroll for me, maybe an android issue? probably an overflow css issue but i clicked the image and that opened an external link, so thanks!!
I think you/we are on the right path. If I have to be more strict: - This definition does not have to do with decentralization, I would call it "sufficiently censorship resistant". Decentralization is an implementation that usually favors it, but there's not a 1-to-1 relationship. - Farcaster is censorship resistant right now, but it is extremely easy to lose this property the next moment: You just have to push a hub update, and all hubs will update to the new, censored version. And if I try to run the old version, it probably won't work because of the specific dynamics of the current network. Of course, may say "well, go ahead and implement your version, etc.", and I will respond, "no, no, it's ok, it's good enough for now" 🤣
I missed it. Thanks for sharing it again. Sometimes I wonder to myself what would happen if we had an open source Warpcast...
great read, also @reidtandy this is a much better experience!! well done
I did next to nothing, other than cheer from the sidelines! Major s/o to @colin & @horsefacts.eth 👏 🙌
Could you make the back button close the mini app and go back to the feed instead of closing warpcast entirely? I never use the back button to close an app that's what the home button is for, thanks
Do we need an approval also for those composer mini apps?
wow a purple button
The fact that it came up as a mini app is just the best. Had to come back before reading it lol
Will this take us out of the app? 😶🌫
Not getting old. My you are always young. I wish Warpcast could walk through life with me. Is it possible?
Yeah! *Interesting content"
Isolation?, anarchy?
Going to read THIS
I talked about @v's post yesterday when asked about decentralization - now I need to read yours. I do appreciate how much you each share and engage with users.
We came for decentralized social (community), but Warpcast monopolized the community (Channel). This alone makes other clients far behind. hope to decentralize the channel as soon as possible, or open more channel interfaces, such as channel creating
Just one question can illustrate whether farcaster is "sufficiently decentralized": if warpcast is gone, will farcaster still exist? The definition of existence is whether there will be people running Hubble, whether there will be developers building Farcaster, whether Farcaster will attract more developers to build, and whether Farcaster will grow into the infrastructure of web3. Come and vote !!! https://canvass.fun/p/g811p4
Who said: A bilion-plus daily active users of the ( Farcaster ) protocol, thousands of apps and services and any interest you have or any guirk in terms of the way you wish something existed. Now? Warpcast is almost a monopoly
Don't listen to the flatterers' nice words, but see the vision of the real builders who want to build together.
Thanks for the information frens
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I often see people Farcaster isn't "sufficiently decentralized". You're free to define what "sufficiently decentralized" means to you, of course, but how we think about it is laid out in Varun's blog post. https://www.varunsrinivasan.com/2022/01/11/sufficient-decentralization-for-social-networks
"But if most people use Warpcast, doesn't that mean it's de facto centralized?" Depends on the perspective. For a developer, if you are building on the protocol, then you're free to sign up your own users or convince users to move over to your app (it's easy for users to use multiple clients at the same time). For an account with an audience, let's say you were unfairly nerfed by Warpcast, i.e. you don't appear on the app. There's definitely a lot of friction to get people to start using another client if they already don't, but the protocol itself is not restricting your ability to communicate. That's an important distinction because on web2 / centralized social networks, the app and the "protocol" (i.e. the database) is the same thing.
So if you're argument is Farcaster is not sufficiently "decentralized" (or "decentralized" if you don't like the sufficient framing) then you're defining decentralization as a protocol or network that has at least 2 independent, roughly equivalent functionality and UX clients (because majority of consumers revealed preference is UX over principles). That's a reasonable definition. But in practice, in the near-term, there's unlikely to be multiple, well-resourced enough clients that are full-time building on the protocol for amazing UX. That's not a knock on people building, just the reality that in 2024 consumers expect a lot of our their daily driver apps. In the medium to long-term, dedicated individuals, small teams or open source projects can likely hit the UX bar. But that will probably take years of sustained effort. So protocols in the early days are unlikely to hit the bar of 2 independent, roughly equivalent and functionality UX clients. This is something I've changed my mind on over the years.
"But if Warpcast didn't have exclusivity on DCs and channels, then other clients could better compete" Yes, but having both be interoperable / in the protocol doesn't magically mean all of that surface area gets built out in other clients. I would assume other clients can move quicker by copying whatever patterns Warpcast has iterated to (avoiding all of our mistakes) and then in some cases, improve the UX. But building out a robust chat UX in 2024 that's passable (not even Telegram level snappy) is *a lot* of work. That's effort not being spent on differentiating features or other core parts of the app. Same goes for channels. And arguably, the most important part of a feed-based social app is the feed, which is mostly backend (machine learning, performance). One advantage for other clients are dedicated infrastructure companies like @neynar, @openrank etc. But it's still a lot of work.
To close: it's easy to have a bunch of opinions on how the ecosystem should be built. But if you talk to the people building the apps, they often have a different perspective having been in the salt mines. That's not to say we are doing everything perfectly (we're not!) and we don't make mistakes. One of the reasons we are holding Developer Day next week is to get candid feedback from a group of developers working in the ecosystem daily. Goal is to get everyone better aligned and rowing in the same direction to make Farcaster successful.
I do think channels need to be decentralized asap. To me the feature is a key part of what makes farcaster a unique experience compared to twitter, and having only warpcast support it is a big tax on the viability of alt clients.
intredasting.. ⚡️
thoughtful breakdown. do you think that this bar would be more likely to be hit if warpcast was open-source?
Good question. I'm going to quote cast to respond more publicly.
No complaints from me. I got it all up and running and then drowned in the firehouse of data coming my way. I think you guys @v are doing a great job as decentralised data AT SCALE is an unsolved problem you are solving.
RE: users moving to another app: is there a way to "sign in with Farcaster" that doesn't have a Warpcast dependency? That's something I keep mentally snagging on - can a user banned on Warpcast use an alternative client as long as logging into that client requires Warpcast? (I also can't use Supercast because of that dependency)
You can create an account on Supercast without Warpcast. We will have Sign in with Farcaster without Warpcast at some point. But not a top priority for any ecosystem dev yet.
This would make a great blog post “Sufficient decentralization in practice”
https://dwr.email/what-does-sufficient-decentralization-mean
No issues with me on the "sufficiently decentralized" term. Makes sense IMO. I do feel focusing on making Farcaster as open as possible (DM's / channels) before find tuning the feed should be a priority though. If all clients have the same features, then we have X amount of projects building clients with similar features, each will get more users because of a fair playing field. End result is, more devs / clients / users able to "crack" the feed / spam issues. I'm reluctant, or should I say unable to use any other client full time without DM's and channel features. Would prioritising a level playing field here not be the better play for the whole ecosystem?
I think it’s a reasonable request. But prioritizing the playing field and then not having anyone make a significant, long term investment in building is incorrect prioritization. There are virtually no sign ups from other clients and permissionless sign ups have been live for almost a year. Huge lift, no developer pay off. Developers overwhelmingly want us to get 100x more good users for the protocol before anything else.
It's kind of a chicken and egg thing though isn't it? Probably don't have sign ups because currently they lack all the features. Currently, other clients are for power users, not "normies" IMO. I feel this would change if all things are equal IMO. But I get your point about it being a big, time consuming lift for you guys.
I don’t think permissionless channel creation (same argument as permissionless sign ups) drives usage since it’s a small % of people creating channels. DCs help, but they aren’t a reason to join the network. Telegram and Twitter already at scale for crypto people. So neither are the reasons people aren’t using other apps or Farcaster. Need differentiated features or content. Likely both.
I think you are confused, sir. It is because many functions are controlled by Warpcast that third-party clients are not competitive and have to register with Warpcast. It is because of the monopoly that this situation occurs.
Another one question: has there been any substantial progress in Farcaster in the past 2024?
Can't agree anymore. The reason for not opening up is profit, Warpcast wants to have this piece of cake alone.
This is FUD.
Just do something that benefit Farcaster, not just benefit Warpcast. Otherwise it is the truth!
I understand there is still a lot of work to be done, but even a little progress is progress. Don't stand still.
appreciate u guys putting this out there time and time again nearly everything starts out centralized, with the goal of decentralizing over time, fc is leading this in social
Warpcast goes down for an hour, I go to @super and still have reach to my audience. Facebook goes down? Well, that means Instagram and Threads are probably down, so there goes any chance at all to contact anyone there until it's back up. Warpcast decides to quit the game entirely? As long as people are still running hubs, the network can continue through other clients. Facebook or X poofs? We lose contact with everyone we've known online for decades, along with every bit of the content we've put there. I'd say Farcaster is quite sufficiently decentralized for my standards.
Just one question can illustrate whether farcaster is "sufficiently decentralized": if warpcast is gone, will farcaster still exist?
Define Farcaster existing
The definition of existence is whether there will be people running Hubble, whether there will be developers building Farcaster, whether Farcaster will attract more developers to build, and whether Farcaster will grow into the infrastructure of web3.
Why do people come to Farcaster? For the community, for those who share common interests, and for building Farcaster together. If not, why would I come to Farcaster? https://bimoo.space/~/article/0x21f07df79d5f8ee99f951c6ae9c85a3e3fc24eb28f596c536aee813be8384a8e
Due to the monopoly of warpcast, third-party login is difficult to achieve
You can sign up directly with the contract. You don’t need Warpcast.
I know I can choose other clients instead of Warpcast, and I can even develop a client that supports wallet login. But you can't ignore the fact that Warpcast is the leader. 99% of users are using Warpcast, but Warpcast, as the leader, has not assumed the corresponding responsibility, and is still constantly strengthening the city.
Stop saying you don’t need warpcast. The reality is that Farcaster and Warpcast are deeply bound together, unless you can decentralize important functions in Farcaster, such as Channel creation and joining.
Do you think I am happy to use Warpcast? If Farcaster is not functionally incomplete, I would not use Warpcast. Because Farcaster is incomplete, I have to use Warpcast.
Of course Warpcast is also very bad
I am here to build a decentralized social platform, not for you, but for web3.
I can understand that Warpcast wants to monopolize profits, but the better Farcaster is built, the greater the profits of Warpcast will be.
Why are developers frustrated, why do users come and leave? You are the one who is frustrating them, you are the one who is driving them away
Stop say you don't need Warpcast, please don't say this again until Warpcast and Farcaster can't be untied. No one likes to use Warpcast, What we likes is Farcaster, but they have to use Warpcast because of some centralized functions.
You know for a fact that Warpcast is the leader, and the status quo is that Farcaster and Warpcast are deeply bound, so please stop saying you don't need Warpcast
How does Warpcast handle spam? It simply marks most non-PB users, which results in new users having no traffic and leaving after they come. I admit that many things will have a chaotic period in their development, but we should solve them proactively, not passively. Just like I tell you these things to make Farcaster better, not to say that you have any problems.
And in fact, I am also planning to develop a Farcaster client that supports wallets login. But I still hope that Farcaster will become more dynamic, rather than being trapped by the shackles of Warpcast.
By the way https://docs.farcaster.xyz/auth-kit/ it is Warpcast authKit not Farcaster authKit
We need to work together before we can defeat twitter. Do you understand?
Just one question can illustrate whether Farcaster is "sufficiently decentralized": if Warpcast is gone, will Farcaster still exist? https://canvass.fun/p/g811p4
Put the thread into an essay here: https://dwr.email/what-does-sufficient-decentralization-mean
So, the answers is.. "ehhh... maybe?" 😀 Reality is always tougher than imagination. Forecaster is dominated by Warpcast, Warpcast has to follow AppStore's rules, so what started as a censorship resistant protocol (that's the essence of "two users can find each other and communicate" imo), is in practice censored by Apple. However, Farcaster still has escape hatches. And it's important to preserve them and add more if possible, and not get into a state of mind where we make additional compromises because "it's more efficient/fast/easy and Warpcast already controls this aspect of the ecosystem, anyway". Your usual argument about network growth holds value here. We have to make sure that when a network size able, to sustain multiple good clients, is reached, and it makes sense for other apps to compete with WC, the protocol allows it, and it has not been compromised in the process.
I think my argument boils down to: it’s decentralized for developers, but not much incentive to care about Farcaster today since it’s small (the people here are pioneers, different calculus). Grow the pie, people will care.
We agree.
first of all, this frame to mini app is incredible!! second, it there are some bugs, i.e. auto-closing the frame / it doesn't scroll on android will read later when i'm not a my kids salute emoji
Mini app opens behind the frame:
good read fyi - the mini app loads behind the frame when i click read don’t know if warpcast issue or paragraph issue but thought to call it out
Thanks will fix.
Is it possible not open Paragraph mini app in Web? Not a good UX..
We're still fixing it up. Agree that it might make sense to nix on web.
Bug on Warpcast mobile: when opening the composer action from the frame overlay, the composer action overlay opens behind the frame.
whoops, will fix
Keep up the good work
Thanks for this
You do think about us. Thanks Dan
Tnx dear💎
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I was hoping farcaster would go in a direction where anyone could connect to it via their EVM wallet and actually register via the wallet address, but I don't know for sure if this is possible
Exploring the concept of "sufficiently decentralized" systems, @dwr.eth discusses how Farcaster allows communication between users regardless of competing workflows. While consumer demand for seamless UX is present, multiple contenders for apps may take time to build. Check out the insights!